In Episode 06 of Leaders of Tomorrow, LAJF Executive Director Helene Mattera talks to Camp Rising Sun alumnus Joe Kim, co-founder of Office Hours, an expert-matching startup. They discuss:
The way CRS energized Joe into committing his life to servant leadership
The similarities in philosophy between Office Hours and Camp Rising Sun
How Camp exposed Joe to new perspectives of people from all over the world
Joe’s understanding of his own privilege and how he has tried to use that privilege in service to others
Listen now:
Transcript:
Hello, and welcome to Leaders of Tomorrow. I'm your host, Helene Mattera. We created Leaders of Tomorrow to share a little bit of the magic that happens at Camp Rising Sun. Exceptional teenagers are nominated to attend our program on a full scholarship when they are teenagers, and we stay involved in their lives forever.
Today, I am speaking with Joe Kim, founder of Office Hours, a startup which matches experts with those seeking knowledge. In our conversation, Joe describes how experiences at Camp Rising Sun have contributed to his success in his career, especially when it comes to feedback, reflection, and communicating across differences.
Hi, Joe, thanks for joining us today. I was wondering if we could just start off by telling us about your work. I know you're busy launching a new company, which connects people with information in a way that I find absolutely fascinating, And quite frankly, reminds me a lot of Camp Rising Sun.
Sure, absolutely. This is great, and I'm excited to to be a part of it. My company—so I started Office Hours Technologies, which is a software company based in San Francisco. I started it last year with my co-founders. On a basic level, we help people around the world earn income by sharing their knowledge. You can think of this a bit like if LinkedIn and AirBNB had a baby.
For example, if there's someone in the audience today hoping to start an international nonprofit, or, you know, think through how to adapt a camp program digitally, during a pandemic, they might go onto Office Hours, and book your time.
Hmm.
And so what we would do is basically facilitate that knowledge sharing event. You can think of it as like virtual office hours—you would host your office hours, and this would give that knowledge seeker the opportunity to really ask specific questions about your unique experiences. And you'd be able to talk through—you know, truly, from your perspective—what you've experienced, and there's value to that as well, you know, the concept here being unlocking this otherwise underutilized asset, which is, in this case, the collective wisdom of society. And so that's the basic gist of what we're building today.
Yeah, and something that really resonated with me when I was learning about this company you’re launching—it brings me back to the Camp Rising Sun program model, and specifically the concept of “instruction time” that we have, where our community comes together, and offers whatever skills and knowledge and experience they have to others in the form of, you know, let's say 60 or 90 minute instruction. And the belief in that is a break from the traditional educational model where we believe that educators—teachers—have knowledge that they bestow on students—young people. And where we break from that is that we believe that everyone who's part of our community has something of value to share with others, and so we create this platform during the summer for campers, staff, visitors, to give an instruction that anyone can participate and learn from.
So hearing about your company, and especially, you know, how you just described it, really sat with me that it was very much like Camp. I wonder, what do you feel influenced you to launch this specific company? Why do you feel like it's of value? And why is it important to you as your passion project?
You know, I think that that's right. Office Hours is based on the premise that we are defined by our own unique experiences, ani those unique individual experiences that only we have, and, you know, share and overlap in some ways, but are very unique to us, in other ways, has value. Truly, you know, it’s a bit of a, just a search-match problem, a connectivity problem, and an incentivization problem. And if you think about sort of the amount of knowledge there is in the world, which is the stuff that is accrued over time, through experience by human beings, you know, we're really just in the first innings here and being able to unlock that.
I'll give the example: So you know, if you're writing a high school social studies paper, like the one I wrote on Denmark's immigration policy back at the time when I was in school, and how that might compare with, let's say, European countries at the time, most commonly we will go online or back then we even went to the library. Turns out back in high school, I was able to reach out to Mads and Ivan, Denmark 2006 campers, and get their, you know, direct perspective. They were able to offer perspective unique to them, but truly adding value to sort of the insights that I was creating on Denmark's immigration policy.
Now, it turns out a total coincidence that Ivan’s father, actually was at the time, the Assistant to the Minister of Immigration of Denmark, and so that was quite helpful. And I'm sure I got an A on that paper, but it's not because it was well written, I'm sure, but based on you know, the insight that I was able to develop on unique perspectives.
Joe was able to get an A on a high school paper about immigration in Denmark, thanks to unique insights he had access to because of CRS.
And this is this is sort of like, I think in some ways, just the beginning, you know. We had, it's almost like a reaction to the democratization of information with the internet and Google—everyone has all information at their fingertips, right? With a click of a button with a search, a lot of noise and aspect. And so, you know, in this case, I was able to get sort of an edge by getting unique perspectives that are that are hard to find, and truly come and stuck in, you know, people's heads. And in this way, we're trying to unlock a bit of that value, and I think that's compelling potential there.
So yeah, and I'm really taken also by the concept of the matching process, matching need to skills. And over the years of knowing you, I've seen you offer help and leveraging your resources to help Camp Rising Sun. It just seems to be second nature to you—like who you are as a person—to see a need, be able to think about it, reflect on it, and then find a way either through yourself or through other resources to have the need met. And how did that trait evolve in you?
I've had a few of my own unique experiences that helped me understand that everyone is different, and therefore, everyone has unique value. And those values come from those unique experiences. I think part of that was, you know, growing up in New York City, having a bit of a culture shock, and going to the high school that I did—Hunter College High School in Manhattan. There I learned, “Oh, not everyone, you know, lives and operates and speak like the friends that I have in Queens.” And then, you know, the massive culture shock of going to camp and realizing, “Wait a second, these are all, you know, 15-year-olds like me, and we have very different experiences and different perspectives.” Further culture shock going in college, and then I think, you know, that developed further as I started to work on teams professionally in my career, and realizing, you know, especially when managing others, like—people are different, people are unique, people behave in different ways. And all those unique sort of perspectives and behaviors have value as well.
What parts of Camp Rising Sun do you feel, impacted the way that you conduct your work?
Is this the most common answer—servant leadership? I think, you know, even throughout there, it's just this continuous theme of discovering and rediscovering servant leadership. My company today, we're a small team. It's almost like a pickup basketball game, you know—everyone's feeling each other out. You know, we just started this as the founding team, we're figuring out who's taking what opportunity, what role, what responsibilities, and truly I think my role today has been to just empower those people, find the right people, empower them, help them find their sweet spots, empower them to do their best work, and then get out of the way.
And so a lot of my day is focused on “How do I make the rest of my team better?” And I think, you know, what's going around today, in this world at this time, it seems like this concept of servant leadership is more crucial than ever. I think strong—truly strong, effective leadership—comes from service, which is demonstrated through your trust and and dictates your motivations and dictates the types of outcomes that you want to determine. And so yeah, I would say, I would say servant leadership, for sure.
Camp Rising Sun introduced Joe to the concept of servant leadership, something he’s focused on throughout his life and career.
So why don't we rewind a little bit and move back to this space when you went to Camp Rising Sun. Paint a picture for us: It's 2006 in Queens, New York, and you're accepted to attend Camp Rising Sun. Tell us about 15-year-old Joe and his life and, why did you apply? What were you hoping to get out of it? You know, what impacted you most? Just tell us about everything.
Where to start! So well, you know, if I'm 15 years old, I'm probably playing a lot of basketball, I'm commuting to school every day—very long commute. I think this is definitely defining of part of who I am today. I would have to take the Q 12 bus to the 7 train to the N train to the 6 train every day to school, which was about an hour and a half commute each way. Many New Yorkers, you know, growing up in New York have similar sort of experiences, but I do think that was sort of a defining—at least memory in my life, of doing that as well.
I mean, in terms of camp, I think I applied through a guidance counselor at our school at Hunter, who told me about the program and thought I should apply. I did apply. I was excited. I mean, I definitely never—summer camp for a lot of New Yorkers is sort of a foreign concept, and so it wasn't on the radar necessarily. But when I interviewed and heard more about it, and then got accepted, I think part of it was, I started realizing even then that like, new experiences were interesting to me. I think it kept my mind running, I think—you know, I grew up with a single mom, and so we definitely, like lived a Queens life.
But one thing she prioritized was was travel, international travel. And so I remember, you know, every year since I was young, we would go somewhere. And so hearing that all these different campers from different perspectives are coming to Red Rock in New York, you know, I was excited for sure.
And once you were there, you know, talk to us a little bit about what your adjustment period was, or, what are the types of things that you remember?
I remember it being, even the first week, just so engaging—it felt like walking into sort of a different society; different norms. You're all of a sudden put in positions that you're not used to as a 15-year-old kid, and being outdoors for a significant amount of time was a newer concept for me as well—I remember that. But, you know, I think it was a very quick transition. And it was, you know, for me, it was thrilling.
And from those experiences is there were one thing one, one takeaway one, one big “aha!” factor for you in the way that the program was designed or anything specific that you wanted to share?
I would say, if I'm looking at sort of how Camp impacted me the most—as who I am today, tangibly, intangibly—I think a unique experience for myself as a 15-year-old to have different opportunities for introspection, at such a young age, self introspection. And so, you know, everything from obviously, like, staying up late in your tent, with your tent mates and sharing about the day, and what went on the day, and basically having a debrief.
I was journaling for the first time in my life as a camper, and so really being able to articulate like, what did I feel that day? How did I behave that day? What are the experiences that I had? What are the emotions I had? That was pretty new to me.
And then, you know, obviously, I think this comes from the culture of camp, where it's even institutionalized—we have Council every week, which for for the audience is, you know, that weekly campfire meeting in the evening, where we reflect on the week itself, and people, you know, speak their mind. Vigils—I mean, that was sort of one of these culminating experiences that camp where, you know, at the end of camp, you're, you're all alone and maintaining a campfire and writing a letter to yourself, that's mailed to you on your 21st birthday.
I mean, those are the types of experiences you don't learn in middle school, you don't learn in high school, there aren't that many opportunities for that. And so I think that ability, trainability, and exposure to introspection, and self-awareness, I think was crucial.
And so once you went home—for the audience, most of the campers attend our program for one summer, and then you know, we stay connected with them through their life course. You are one of the small group of campers who were selected to come back for a second year and to help recreate the community for the next group of people by setting the tone and role modeling and being the leaders to teach the culture of the organization to the incoming campers.
I'm just curious, what made you want to come back and apply to be one of the second year campers and how was that second year experience different for you from the first year?
Well, for me these years blend together a little bit.
Fair enough!
But I had a lot of these experiences in my first year of camp that I'm assuming, even though we are just, it's just a program of 60 campers in Red Hook—I probably had these sort of unique experiences, conversations, activities, that splintered off with different types of folks.
One, it was incredibly engaging. So, you know, selfishly I wanted to go back to camp and experience them again. But two, I think, a lot of it was taking sort of the best moments that I had and in trying to share that with a new set of campers as well. So I think like a specific example could be, I remember we did sort of all these different mini trips that were actually really helpful for me, we went to like a Baptist Church and a synagogue and a mosque, and we did the hiking trip, and I played a bunch of pranks that were like, really fun to play again on campers. And I remember like—
—That we don't do anymore.
And so I think to be able to share that, again, in a different perspective, with more of sort of what to expect—that was probably interesting to me. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, I think it's such a privilege to have gone a second time, and I would have gone again and again, if I could.
Yeah I mean, I guess I'm in the unique position where I do get to go to Camp Rising Sun again and again. And for me the years really blend together. Sometimes I lose track of—was that one of my campers when I was a counselor, you know?
Right, right.
So let's think about the going home process. So after your first year, and then again, for you coming back after a second year, many of our campers experience this transition period where they've just had this life-changing experience. They go home, the people around them didn't necessarily change, like they're coming back to the world as it was. It sounds like your mom was worldly and, you know, valued learning about other countries and other people. But I'm wondering if there was any sort of transition experience for you, or what was it like to come home after this incredibly impactful experience?
I imagine I was telling everyone I knew about the experience, and how incredible it was. This is when Facebook I think actually started to become more of an international—and not just for, you know, college students—but that's how we connected after Camp with all my fellow campers was on Facebook. And so I think I was on Facebook a lot.
I think myself, I mean, when I got back the first time, that's when I ran for student government. Before that, that wasn't sort of on my radar in any way, or even to participate too much in high school other than just, you know, attending classes. But that was my first experience in student government: I ran for office, and that kicked off sort of, you know, the next three years of doing, sort of like service for my school. I ended up being the president of my high school my senior year, and that wouldn't have happened without Camp—that proactivity and that sort of initiative and in the sense of building community.
I don't know, I mean, maybe? But I think Camp definitely accelerated that for sure. So I that's like a very tangible, you know, difference. I think it was definitely an inflection point in my life, where I became more, by knowing myself more and what I was interested in, how to sort of, like, interact with peers and build groups and consensus—that definitely set off sort of at least my political career.
Yeah. And then after high school, I know that you were very fortunate to receive, if I remember a full scholarship to Dartmouth, is that right?
Yeah. I mean, it was—it was definitely a privilege to, I mean, Camp was very similar, I think. Throughout my life, it's defined by all sorts of privilege, the ability to experience and grow in a fortunate way, through these different, you know, luck-produced opportunities. And also—the Camp Rising Sun scholarship, I think, helped me buy all the things I needed to go to school, including, like a very expensive laptop, and, you know, those things that all my classmates had.
Well, that's great. And what was the college experience like for you?
College experience? I mean, I loved my time at Dartmouth. I think in some ways we consider Dartmouth as an extension of, you know, this culture of Camp. It's in the middle of the woods, you're in your basically small, isolated community, very tight-knit. It was a wonderful experience and also very worldly.
In other ways, it was also another culture shock, I think, coming from New York City, to then Dartmouth—your peers are all of a sudden different, all different types of people. But I think in a similar way to Camp, Dartmouth is truly like an equalizer. Like everyone's coming from all different perspectives, and once you're there, everyone's a student. There's no city to go back to, there's no parents close to Dartmouth and so you can't go back home. I had a wonderful experience.
Hmm. And then you know, in your time away from Camp as an adult, what has sustained your interest? I know that you've volunteered in a variety of different ways, but why do you keep coming back? Why do you still stay connected with Camp Rising Sun as a successful, independent adult?
Well, I had this great conversation with my team, my company, in an off site, just last month. And we were like, in deep discussion of this concept of working towards service and impact for today, versus service and impact for tomorrow—particularly in Silicon Valley. And there's, I would say, a significant attitude, followed by many people here, of like, working hard today, to build for value tomorrow in the future.
I think that's incredibly important. And it's important that we have forward thinking people, it’s necessary to drive progress in our society. But there is of equal importance to and then sometimes overlooked, that focus on impact now, creating value for people today. And it's sometimes I feel like, missed.
And so you know, my partner, Zoe is a good example. She's a resident physician at UCSF, and my mom, you know, being the teacher and also a principal, like every day, they're doing work for their patients and students. But sometimes there's this discussion around scalability of impact—it's like a utilitarian view of how many people can I touch later on, if I build something huge, and it’s really hard to get there.
Tying this back to Camp, I see Camp as truly doing both. It's creating immense value today, right? The value is unmeasurable for myself as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old. If I remember, it's fully funded, bringing young individuals together in a diverse environment. I mean, there's soccer and talent shows and chess, but there's also true, like human growing and building exercises that are happening real time that impact those people that summer.
Immediately, right.
But there is also an incredible investment in tomorrow. Like it's a development in characteristics and traits of these young individuals that ideally are empowered and inspired to move the needle for society in the future. There’s scale to that as well, too. And I think like, it's hard to get both. It's hard to invest in both. But I think Camp is one of those special places where it's absolutely being done in real time.
And so I think that there's an extended sort of like, value proposition for Camp Rising Sun that I think is unique to, you know—that's sort of like a compelling draw.
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that perspective. I'm not sure that I've ever thought about it in that way. And I really appreciate it.
You know, and something that that comes to mind, when I talk about Camp Rising Sun to non-alumni, you know, to the rest of the world—often people make an assumption that our goal is to produce teachers or produce social workers or, you know, people who are directly involved in service. You know, where their careers are directly involved with service. But I try and help them to understand that it's actually, we want our alumni to be in every walk of life in every industry, because we believe that servant leadership is needed everywhere.
And so I love that, I feel like talking with you today about your work in the tech industry—we absolutely want someone like you, who's an empathic, good communicator, who can help bring out the best of people in the tech field and be an excellent role model about helping people to be introspective and reflective on their work and who they are, how they work as a team.
And on every level, no matter what your career is, you know, we believe that the values that we help teach at Camp Rising Sun will make an impact, and those impacts will ripple into all spheres of life and every industry, every part of the world.
So, as we're wrapping up, Joe, what advice might you give your 15-year-old self?
Hmm, what advice would I give, that I would be willing to receive as a 15-year-old. This is very personal—it's not a—I don't know if I'd give this advice to other 15-year-olds, but for myself, I think. it's just continually reminding yourself myself of, of your privilege. Of all the opportunities that exist that have existed, just by the nature of your situation. I think it's a grounding effect where we can get lost and transition across all the types of things that we're doing and life moving.
But I think understanding that privilege and internalizing that, in recognizing that that's the case, I think is truly helpful, and part of those things that that give you perspective, in terms of appreciation and also respect for others. I think it's important to recognize, and it's important to recognize at an early age for myself, and I think, hopefully can direct me with the right sort of, you know, motivations and attitudes and understanding with all sorts of people.
And just how can our listeners learn more about how to be an expert or a client on office hours, your company?
Ah, well, they can visit the website at www.officehours.com, the concept being you know, you can sign up and create your own Office Hours profile, choose a charity of your choice, and start hosting office hours.
I think part of our job and commitment is to help you connect to the right people and share your knowledge and help you share that. Thanks for asking! I think officehours.com is probably the best way to find out for now.
That's awesome. Well, have a great day, and thank you for your time.
Thank you!
Thank you for joining us today, and you can find all the links and show notes for today's episode at www.lajf.org/podcast. Remember to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform to hear more inspiring stories of leadership, connection, and hope. I encourage you to find your path of altruism for your own happiness and in service to others.
About Joe:
Joe Kim attended Camp Rising Sun in 2006 and 2007. He is the co-founder of Office Hours, a knowledge-sharing platform which aims to make one of the most underutilized assets in the world, human knowledge, more freely available. Office Hours connects clients with questions to advisors who have the answers as experts in their respective fields, facilitating conversations between clients and advisors, knowledge seekers and knowledge holders.
Prior to co-founding Office Hours, Joe was the head of client service operations for AlphaSights, which also seeks to help connect experts with clients.
You can connect with Joe in the CRS Alumni Group on LinkedIn.